Replacement editor for an old FP guy.

Phreaddee

Phreaddee

Super Moderator
Staff member
the closest i've ever come to using a wysiwyg editor in recent times is squarespace

www.squarespace.com

its free to try and there is nothing to download. sign up and give it a go.
at worst it'll be a waste of one night...
 
jungleexplorer

jungleexplorer

New Member
d a v e said:
i'm sorry that attitude just doesn't fly.

you want everything but won't invest any time.
you want us to listen to your opinions and caveats but won' take any notice of ours
fine why not just go somewhere else?

i've had enough of your attitude as i'm sure some others have too.
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What is it about my attitude that you find so offensive? I came here and clearly articulated the kind of information I was after. So far not one person has offered the kind of information I asked for. To the contrary, I have been attacked and basically called stupid. When attacked, I defended myself and you call that a bad attitude. I asked for an orange and was offered a rock. I rejected the rock because it was not for I asked for, and you call that a bad attitude.

I participate on more then a dozen forums covering a wide range of issues from computers to razing chickens. I never answer a post for help unless I can give the OP exactly what they are looking for. But many people go around answering post just to make themselves feel better whether or not they are actually answering the OP.

I have actually performed experiments to test how well people actually read post for help and have found that most people don't even read the whole original post. They read enough to get the idea of what the poster is saying, then they go into regurgitation mode where the just try to push their own ideas, whether or not it has anything to do with what the OP is asking. Try it for your self and you will see what I mean. Post a question with multiple points that you need answers for and see if anyone answers or even address half of the points you listed.

I am a man and I don't ask people to tiptoe around my feelings, but I also don't tiptoe around theirs. If you come at me, you had better have your ducks in a row.
 
ronaldroe

ronaldroe

Super Moderator
Staff member
jungleexplorer said:
Since the fact is, that wysiwyg editors are still being produced and updated, that means there must be a demand for them.
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There is a demand for them. A few actually have TV commercials clearly targetted toward small business owners who either don't want to or don't have the money to hire someone to do it. The demand comes from the DIY crowd. You won't find it among people who consider themselves web designers.
 
D

d a v e

New Member
the thing i find offensive is that you won't listen to what professionals are saying and that when you are given recommenedations you won't take any of your own time to evaluate those recommendations for yourself

i always read the whole post and i've been visiting forums for years now

you asked for: "looking for a new WYSIWYG program to update and edit my many existing FP sites with." i suggested expression web which is the update to frontpage, even though it is a bit of a jump.

I've tried several wyiswyg editors since the very first version of dreamweaver but i can't say i've used expressions web extensively: enough for a first impression? yes enough even for a second one, and i've been on enough frontpage forums to recommend it on others' recommendations. you might just have to put the time in yourself to try it and see if it suits you. you can talk all you want with someone who's been using it day in day out, but seeing as you don't listen to the advice of professionals here about hand-coding and code quality then it seems a waste of time discussing another wysiwig with someone else, should you find such a person.

i also mentioned wordpress, not exactly wysiwig but an avenue you might want to explore.

i personally wouldn't recommend expressions web over say dreamweaver, or kompopzer, or NVU or some others, but for someone (you) wanting a smooth transition from frontpage to the next thing then i think it would be the best fit

i think i pretty much have my ducks in a row - maybe you can explain how i - or anyone else here - hasn't answered your question to your liking, but at the end of the day however helpful we are we're not here to do your work for you - if you're not man enough to take recommendations and check them out for yourself why bother making sites?

the "rock" may not be what you asked for, but it's probably what you need ;)
 
chrishirst

chrishirst

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I have been developing HTML documents since the mid 1990s, note the word "developing" because I am definitely not a "designer", I have always seen the two disciplines at common but separate, designing requires artistic skills, developing requires logic skills. Rarely do those two combine perfectly in a single human being.
jungleexplorer said:
But code changes all the time too and requires almost constant study as well to keep up. I am not as young as I used to be and don't have the brain cells left to learn a new language every six months.
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There is is the "Use it or lose it" maxim.
Three years ago ago I had a cerebral infarction, to use a technical phrase, and I have found that making myself (re-)learn and understand HTML & CSS concepts and specifications have improved my cognitive abilities in other areas as well.

jungleexplorer said:
I really enjoyed using the program and never had all the complaints that I heard everyone else had. So you can imagine my horror when Microsoft discontinued the program. I mean, all the time and money spent in learning this program was just flushed down the drain. So, I have hung on as long as I could, but now you cannot find a web host that supports FP extensions anymore and now I am forced to move on.
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FP "morphed" into "ExpressionWeb" because the very poor support it had for server-side languages (It couldn't even get the Microsoft created languages correct) became very, very much outdated. Microsoft at the time had NOT intended to "adopt" the Internet and had said that it was not likely to "catch on" with their customers. FP was a bit like IE4, and "rushed out" when they decided they had got it wrong, so it had many flaws.
FP extensions are not supported by hosting companies any more because they have not been updated since around 1998 and are an huge security risk, I run five servers and have had them disabled for several years and we will turn away business rather than install FP Extensions on any of our servers.

One of the issues that I would suggest we all have with "Designed with Microsoft Frontpage" documents is that, you can tell!!
They all have the same kind of layout and no matter what colours or images are used, they still look like a FP "designed" page.



jungleexplorer said:
So here I am, a guy who has been out of the market for over a decade, looking for a new WYSIWYG program to update and edit my many existing FP sites with. I am not looking to make this a career choice, I just want to keep what I have already created up-to-date and going.
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One of the problems trying to find a FP replacement is, ... there isn't one. If you used "Frontpage includes" it would be far easier and much less time consuming to start from scratch.

I didn't see NVU CoffeeCup or Page Breeze mentioned anywhere so I'll throw those into the mix for your consideration.
 
chrishirst

chrishirst

Well-Known Member
Staff member
jungleexplorer said:
I disagree with you, that writing code is in any way an advanced way to create a website. How is it an advancement when that is the same way people started making websites in the beginning? People used to fight wars with clubs, then they invented swords, then bows and arrows, then guns, then canons, then missiles, then Predator Drones. That's advancement. Doing things the same way they were done in the beginnings, does not seem like and advancement to me.

To me writing code seems like choosing to walk to the store instead of driving my car that will do most of the work for me. FP was like driving a car to me, and now every body is saying that they don't make cars anymore, because walking is a far more advanced and easier way to get to the store. It just does not click in my mind..
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and we all know what kind of mess the world is now in because of "improved/advanced" methods or means of death and destruction have left us with.

Same with driving even short distance rather than using what our legs were intended for.



jungleexplorer said:
Okay, so what you are saying is that, Frontpage was the most advanced wysiwyg editor ever created and that there is no full wysiwyg editor to replace it. I find that hard to believe, but if it is so, then it is so.

I disagree with you, that writing code is in any way an advanced way to create a website. How is it an advancement when that is the same way people started making websites in the beginning?
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I don't think anyone suggested that. Hand coding is not an "advanced way" but it is far more flexible and controllable than WYSIAWYG, therefore is PREFERABLE over the rather jumbled mess that most, if not all visual design tools leave behind, after all they are only as good as the person who programmed it.
 
CaldwellYSR

CaldwellYSR

Member
jungleexplorer said:
But code changes all the time too and requires almost constant study as well to keep up.
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Then don't get back into web design. In all honestly think about what you said here. Code changes all the time and if you as a person can't keep up how do you expect some WYSIWYG editor to keep up? It only gets updated once a year if that and is ALWAYS behind on standards. If you really don't think you can keep up do yourself and the web design community a favor and just leave it to us.
 
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